Politickin'
Jan. 18th, 2005 10:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
xaaraI was interviewed by CNN today re: Condoleezza Rice's senate hearings. Actually, I wasn't asked about the hearings so much as what my government class thought of them and of the 2004 presidential election. I said something quote-able and articulate (I think), but I can't remember exactly what it was as I said it sometime before nine in the morning and had not yet had my cup of coffee.
Later in the day, some of my friends and I were sitting in Health class and discussing what we found attractive about the opposite sex. I said hands and eyes because woah am I a sucker for the whole Bambi eyes thing; another girl said noses and backs; a guy said arms and some other things I'm not going to repeat here because they look irreversibly crude on paper--screen--whatever. Then, somehow, we started talking about what our ideal spouse/partner would be. My best girl friend said she wanted a guy with a wicked sense of humor who smiled a lot and was good with kids. I said something along the lines of a smart guy who appreciates British humor and likes word puzzles. And D started to say something, and then stopped, claiming that he was afraid we'd be offended. We assured him we wouldn't and finally managed to drag it out of him.
I want a sort of housewifey wife, he said. Someone I can take care of, someone who I can feel protective of. He was terrified that we'd...I don't know, string him up for saying that. We said that of course that's an okay thing to want--it's completely legitimate and not offensive at all.
But I was curious, so later I posed this question to three of my guy friends:
Do you think that the feminist movement has so redefined the popular view of a "woman's role" that women who would like to fulfill traditional mother/housewife roles and men who would like to singlehandedly support their families are less acceptable to society than they were pre-feminism?
The answers:
Guy 1: Frankly, yes.
Me: But then doesn't it mean that feminism as a movement sort of came around to bite women in the ass?
Me: I mean, it was originally about giving women the freedom to choose their lifestyles
Guy 1: Right.
Me: But now it seems to be more about forcing women to adhere to a different standard that's not necessarily superior to the first one
Guy 1: I agree completely.
Guy 1: The difference is one seems to imply some sort of inferiority to man, or so some women would have us believe.
-------------------------
Guy 2: yes
Me: Then why the hell isn't anyone saying anything about it?
Guy 2: its not very PC
Guy 2: to say that
Me: True, but that's only because political correctness has been defined by a movement whose goals are now completely different from its original mission
Me: I mean, originally feminism was all about giving women the right to choose, and now it's about forcing women to choose non-"traditional" roles
Guy 2: well no
Guy 2: thats no what feminisim is about
Guy 2: but
Guy 2: like anything
Guy 2: the culture of counterculture
Guy 2: has become so mainstream
Guy 2: that its hard to be
Guy 2: "traditional"
Guy 2: the symbolism
Guy 2: is now
Guy 2: a cultural
Guy 2: societal
Guy 2: norm
Guy 2: and practice
Guy 2: and to not express those ideals
Guy 2: with
Guy 2: the proper form
Guy 2: is socially unacceptable
-------------------------
Guy 3: if not less acceptable per se, it seems like you're not one of the "in" crowd if you do stay home and do that
Guy 3: so i think there's definitely some stigma
(…)
Me: It would be highly offensive to some people for you to say you'd expect that [housework, cooking, caring for kids, etc.] for your wife, though.
Guy 3: well
Guy 3: being european
Guy 3: it's completely normal and it's the way things work
Me: lol
Guy 3: and no one speaks out against it
Guy 3: because that's how it is
Guy 3: so i wouldn't expect my wife to per se...but i wouldn't think she would be doing anything wrong by staying home
(…)
Guy 3: there's absolutely nothing wrong in europe with the woman doing dishes, cooking, raising the kids, because that's how it's always been and no one complains
Me: Exactly
Me: And I don't have a problem with it
Me: But a lot of my female friends have a problem with my not having a problem with it
Guy 3: hehe i think it's good that you don't have a problem with it
Guy 3: i don't think a woman has an obligation to herself to go out and get a job
(…)
Guy 3: now of course if she doens't have any natural obligations [children] to attend to...i think women should be given all the same opportunities but judged on different scales when there is clearly a biological difference in ability from men
I guess if I were to sum up their opinions quickly, I'd say that they all believe that feminism has progressed to mean a great number of things that are not necessarily in the female gender's best interests. I'm still thinking about it, but for now, I tend to agree. Huh.
Oh, and if you have an opinion, I'd love to hear it. I sense an essay in the making.
Later in the day, some of my friends and I were sitting in Health class and discussing what we found attractive about the opposite sex. I said hands and eyes because woah am I a sucker for the whole Bambi eyes thing; another girl said noses and backs; a guy said arms and some other things I'm not going to repeat here because they look irreversibly crude on paper--screen--whatever. Then, somehow, we started talking about what our ideal spouse/partner would be. My best girl friend said she wanted a guy with a wicked sense of humor who smiled a lot and was good with kids. I said something along the lines of a smart guy who appreciates British humor and likes word puzzles. And D started to say something, and then stopped, claiming that he was afraid we'd be offended. We assured him we wouldn't and finally managed to drag it out of him.
I want a sort of housewifey wife, he said. Someone I can take care of, someone who I can feel protective of. He was terrified that we'd...I don't know, string him up for saying that. We said that of course that's an okay thing to want--it's completely legitimate and not offensive at all.
But I was curious, so later I posed this question to three of my guy friends:
Do you think that the feminist movement has so redefined the popular view of a "woman's role" that women who would like to fulfill traditional mother/housewife roles and men who would like to singlehandedly support their families are less acceptable to society than they were pre-feminism?
The answers:
Guy 1: Frankly, yes.
Me: But then doesn't it mean that feminism as a movement sort of came around to bite women in the ass?
Me: I mean, it was originally about giving women the freedom to choose their lifestyles
Guy 1: Right.
Me: But now it seems to be more about forcing women to adhere to a different standard that's not necessarily superior to the first one
Guy 1: I agree completely.
Guy 1: The difference is one seems to imply some sort of inferiority to man, or so some women would have us believe.
-------------------------
Guy 2: yes
Me: Then why the hell isn't anyone saying anything about it?
Guy 2: its not very PC
Guy 2: to say that
Me: True, but that's only because political correctness has been defined by a movement whose goals are now completely different from its original mission
Me: I mean, originally feminism was all about giving women the right to choose, and now it's about forcing women to choose non-"traditional" roles
Guy 2: well no
Guy 2: thats no what feminisim is about
Guy 2: but
Guy 2: like anything
Guy 2: the culture of counterculture
Guy 2: has become so mainstream
Guy 2: that its hard to be
Guy 2: "traditional"
Guy 2: the symbolism
Guy 2: is now
Guy 2: a cultural
Guy 2: societal
Guy 2: norm
Guy 2: and practice
Guy 2: and to not express those ideals
Guy 2: with
Guy 2: the proper form
Guy 2: is socially unacceptable
-------------------------
Guy 3: if not less acceptable per se, it seems like you're not one of the "in" crowd if you do stay home and do that
Guy 3: so i think there's definitely some stigma
(…)
Me: It would be highly offensive to some people for you to say you'd expect that [housework, cooking, caring for kids, etc.] for your wife, though.
Guy 3: well
Guy 3: being european
Guy 3: it's completely normal and it's the way things work
Me: lol
Guy 3: and no one speaks out against it
Guy 3: because that's how it is
Guy 3: so i wouldn't expect my wife to per se...but i wouldn't think she would be doing anything wrong by staying home
(…)
Guy 3: there's absolutely nothing wrong in europe with the woman doing dishes, cooking, raising the kids, because that's how it's always been and no one complains
Me: Exactly
Me: And I don't have a problem with it
Me: But a lot of my female friends have a problem with my not having a problem with it
Guy 3: hehe i think it's good that you don't have a problem with it
Guy 3: i don't think a woman has an obligation to herself to go out and get a job
(…)
Guy 3: now of course if she doens't have any natural obligations [children] to attend to...i think women should be given all the same opportunities but judged on different scales when there is clearly a biological difference in ability from men
I guess if I were to sum up their opinions quickly, I'd say that they all believe that feminism has progressed to mean a great number of things that are not necessarily in the female gender's best interests. I'm still thinking about it, but for now, I tend to agree. Huh.
Oh, and if you have an opinion, I'd love to hear it. I sense an essay in the making.
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:13 pm (UTC)And Kat, I like the way you put it--exchanging one cultural norm for another. As long as no one challenges cultural ideas, then we as a culture sort of stagnate. I think that stagnation period is the era we're beginning to enter now. That might be overblown and unnecessarily dramatic, but it's just what I've seen from observing the interactions around me.